Why this world disgusts me in a nutshell - Page 3 - Social Anxiety Forum
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #41 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 10:15 AM Thread Starter
'internet nerd'
 
Persephone The Dread's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I've come to burn your kingdom down
Language: Eng (UK,) 下手な日本語
Posts: 35,912
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScorchedEarth View Post
Yeah, I'm in the same place right now, probably worse because of the institutionalized, legal sexism that's directly limiting my life prospects right now, tearing away what slim chances I had of setting up something resembling a mediocre existence. Just utterly disgusted and disillusioned, including at myself for accepting all this inexcusable **** as ''normal'' until a few years ago.

The silver lining for me is that all the factionalism, the unchecked corporate greed, the callous self-interest of those able to affect change, are going to lead to an extinction event soon enough. Too bad I likely won't be around to savor it. And I doubt it's going to be thorough enough to prevent history from repeating itself.
What is it you're trying to do/need? (Wondering if it's a specific example or more generalised.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothlinghs View Post
I wonder this too. I wonder why cis women (I hope I use the right term) also bite this concept. There is some great books about how women are created via movies etc. Settled them into a little woman box and said how to be a woman and what kind of women are acceptable in our society.
I would want to meet a hardcore feminist which is actually a transwoman. Who choosed to be feminist woman who represents the freedom of women to be what they want to and fights for that .
Other stuff isn't valued as much, so it takes a particular kind of personality to decide to value something other than visual appearance (if you're female,) and also to be driven by something that may not be positively reinforced by others. Not to mention the disgust and criticism you'll get from people which is relative to how far against standards you go, and which is easily internalised by people.

I don't even think aesthetics are always about beauty. I think they're often about social signalling, personal expression and tribalism. A lot of styles of dress, makeup, and hairstyles attract people with certain values/lifestyles/personality traits. Contrapoints is either unaware of these distinctions, or doesn't really address them because of her own personal drive (presumably the latter.) In fact in her video she pretty much concludes that the only group who doesn't feel the same way as she does about beauty is maybe lesbians lol.... (and that straight men and women, all transpeople + gay men agree.)

Of course lesbian women tend to have their own ideals which are separate and overlapping with mainstream culture. (eg: athleticism, slimness, smaller breasts. + the mainstream stereotypes.) So it's also incorrect to say they don't care at all. On an anecdotal level I can even think of a lesbian woman who probably feels exactly the same as she does about femininity like this sense of pure idealisation (I've never met a straight woman who does though, and I think it's probably because what you're attracted to has some impact on ideals for many people.) Though studies show that androgynous and masculine women both care less about physical appearance but then so do most straight men (the self identified incels she references aside.) In the end though, I think increasing insecurity is inevitable because it creates profit. Look at men in South Korea for example who put a lot more effort into their appearance.

I do believe that many transwomen (not all,) are more internally motivated than ciswomen to pursue some archetype of femininity and beauty and value it over stuff that men tend to be valued for 'rational thought' etc. There are a bunch who find the idea of being associated with anything remotely masculine disturbing. (ime at the moment, people who idealise certain feminine traits less seem far less likely to ID as transwomen, or they'll consider themselves non-binary + a transwoman or something like that.)

A lot of ciswomen on the other hand are less likely to enjoy what they're doing and find various expectations of femininity jarring but continue anyway to compete with others to get what they want. Sometimes doing things on autopilot. Because unless you have a very conforming personality, if something is expected of you and you're punished for not going along with it, it's not going to appeal as much regardless. Because it feels like coercion. This also explains why you have contrarian styles of presentation that are often very feminine, but alternative.

In addition to that younger women have been brought up more progressively, so they tend to identify less with stereotypical depictions of femininity now but then this is probably true of younger transpeople as well because they had different role models. Also reminds me of Chris Hemsworth (plays Thor,) talking about how all his kids (2 boys, 1 girl,) wanted to dress up as Wonder Woman for Halloween.

Contrapoints isn't that old I think she's a couple of years older than me, but I think people in their early 20s and younger are a lot more variable but the key point isn't what role models people in general are encouraged to have but the ones transpeople are. Transpeople have double standards where they're expected to be very conforming in order to be 'valid' a discussion about this has sort of come up only in the past five or so years, and Contrapoints is a bit too old to really be involved with that (in fact she mentioned in tweets before how different the attitudes of people just a few years younger than her seemed to be online.)

But yeah so in the case of the video I posted before she seems internally motivated to pursue femininity and beauty but simultaneously doesn't enjoy it. I find it difficult to tease apart where the social influence is coming from there if at all. When your internalised ideal goes completely against what society is saying you should want, it's pretty easy to conclude it's what you want to be doing at least initially, but at a certain point it can become confused (in the same way it's confused for cispeople.) I don't think she really can can project all of her feelings onto cishetwomen though without discussing the cultural differences, I also don't think lesbian women necessarily can either though because there are again relevant differences in body image/aesthetic and lifestyle ideals on a group level. (I mean she kind of acknowledges that for lesbians in the video albeit poorly but seems to be speaking for other groups lol.)

Here's a good example:

https://youtu.be/ACVM1BUY8tY?t=5m2s

And then damn on top of that, you have to consider variations on a national level. Europeans don't have the same beauty ideals as Americans and it varies per European country too and they're not all equally as obsessed. Like I was looking through her videos (link below) because she's lived in multiple countries, used to watch her content years ago and I remember at one point after she moved to the UK from Japan she mentioned that people seemed less concerned with appearance in the UK compared to other places she'd lived (and this is a stereotype I've come across repeatedly. I think it might be partly the **** weather.) Can't find her talking about that now, but found this video:

https://@www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfesE1iw_tI

Anyway there are transwomen who are feminists. Lots who consider themselves feminists. I don't really care to consider the label since in practice people use it to mean almost anything and I don't really care about the label. I'd rather just listen to what people are saying and then decide if I agree or not.

Quote:
Please don't attempt to raid Nevada to 'see them aliens' as part of the internet's joke du jour, the US air force will not be amused.
Slavoj Žižek on the horrors of tulips.

🎸

"Who are you to change this world?
Silly boy!
No one needs to hear your words.
Let it go."
Persephone The Dread is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #42 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 12:03 PM
SAS Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Language: I have a one tongue and that is not English
Gender: Female
Posts: 667
My Mood: Cheeky
Quote:
Originally Posted by Persephone The Dread View Post

And then damn on top of that, you have to consider variations on a national level. Europeans don't have the same beauty ideals as Americans and it varies per European country too and they're not all equally as obsessed. Like I was looking through her videos (link below) because she's lived in multiple countries, used to watch her content years ago and I remember at one point after she moved to the UK from Japan she mentioned that people seemed less concerned with appearance in the UK compared to other places she'd lived (and this is a stereotype I've come across repeatedly. I think it might be partly the **** weather.) Can't find her talking about that now, but found this video:

Anyway there are transwomen who are feminists. Lots who consider themselves feminists. I don't really care to consider the label since in practice people use it to mean almost anything and I don't really care about the label. I'd rather just listen to what people are saying and then decide if I agree or not.
Well, that is actually a good point to remind who are labelling themselves as feminists and also I forgot the new generation of "feminists" which actually are taking bathrooms away from women, ahem.


What comes to beauty standards around the world some asians are in a row to object settled (western) beauty standards and I approve and honour that. Because asian eyes for example should be praised and not operated equal to western eyes. Also denying to use make up, way to go!



I wonder when americans start to appreciate themselves and say no to forced mold for women. Europeans are so different from each other. Italy and France are considered fashionable. In other European countries I think it is more free will and people are grouped into different styles. In every country there is those groups which settle themselves into going on trends and are picky of their looks and then all kind of other groups till natural people which appreciate organic but of course natural "beautiful" looks. I mean they still brush their teeth, hair etc. and choose their clothes.

No, I don't speak English and that is a secret of my happiness!
smoothlinghs is offline  
post #43 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 12:08 PM
SAS Member
 
SorryForMyEnglish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Language: Bad English
Gender: Agender
Posts: 1,022
My Mood: Dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothlinghs View Post
I wonder this too. I wonder why cis women (I hope I use the right term) also bite this concept. There is some great books about how women are created via movies etc. Settled them into a little woman box and said how to be a woman and what kind of women are acceptable in our society.
I would want to meet a hardcore feminist which is actually a transwoman. Who choosed to be feminist woman who represents the freedom of women to be what they want to and fights for that .

Wow I'm gladly surprised I'm not alone who hates it here :o
In my case it also extends to other aspects of ''femininity''. Pisses me off because women are at disadvantage and they keep whole womenkind at this place since most of them do that and aren't going to read books that will challenge them or to move anywhere at all as a group of people.

@Persephone The Dread I thought you were trolling about this whole stuff in general. It's just that as far as I understood, you were thinking these feminist ideas (including gender norms etc) were bull**** and that so were anti-capitalist ideas. And then I saw this thread which was a direct opposite. Sorry for misunderstanding your previous posts.

Contrapoints doesn't debunk what radical feminists say. Kinda proves it tbh. But seems like ''woke'' people think it's in the ''brain'' and brain is gendered which is ''genetic''. Strange they think of themselves as more progressive than 2nd wave feminists cause they're repeating what was before which is 19th century's ideas about people being inherently different based on their sex or race. So much for being ''progressive''.

Sorry for my English.
SorryForMyEnglish is offline  
 
post #44 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 01:24 PM
SAS Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Language: I have a one tongue and that is not English
Gender: Female
Posts: 667
My Mood: Cheeky
Quote:
Originally Posted by SorryForMyEnglish View Post
Wow I'm gladly surprised I'm not alone who hates it here :o
In my case it also extends to other aspects of ''femininity''. Pisses me off because women are at disadvantage and they keep whole womenkind at this place since most of them do that and aren't going to read books that will challenge them or to move anywhere at all as a group of people.

Femininity is unshaved armpits and hairy legs. That is how women are born and that is their natural existence Femininity is bleeding and cramps, there is no more womanhood than giving a sweaty bloody birth and periods (no offence to health problems etc. but to point difference of physics between men and women) And I love to break men's pink dreams about the demands of femininity which they created for their own pleasure . Oh the heels and the gnarled toes with corns . Why men are so addicted into lipstick and all those plastic layers anyway? Most of those fashion house desingers which created "femininity" are gays and men bought what they offered.. What it tells about men, hmmmm... .


Women could also look at the financial point. Even by following socially accepted mold for women they can have a good marriage with money but by saving their moneys from beauty factory they could earn their own moneys by investing etc. Now all the moneys are going into pockets of men because of course men lead and own the plastic surgery and beauty industry. Men shaming women ugly to get their moneys, how clever is that?

No, I don't speak English and that is a secret of my happiness!
smoothlinghs is offline  
post #45 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 02:29 PM Thread Starter
'internet nerd'
 
Persephone The Dread's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I've come to burn your kingdom down
Language: Eng (UK,) 下手な日本語
Posts: 35,912
@SorryForMyEnglish

I agree with feminists on some things but not everything. I mostly think that a combination of genetic, biological (like hormones,) and social stuff influences things.

Quote:
Please don't attempt to raid Nevada to 'see them aliens' as part of the internet's joke du jour, the US air force will not be amused.
Slavoj Žižek on the horrors of tulips.

🎸

"Who are you to change this world?
Silly boy!
No one needs to hear your words.
Let it go."
Persephone The Dread is offline  
post #46 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 05:15 PM
Orange Alert
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: State Home for the Ugly
Age: 32
Posts: 4,655
My Mood: Worried
Quote:
Originally Posted by Persephone The Dread View Post
What is it you're trying to do/need? (Wondering if it's a specific example or more generalised.)
It's a very specific practice of gender discrimination. I won't say more on this, but I'll leave you a hint: it's something I'm trying not to do.
ScorchedEarth is offline  
Reply




Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome